SEO - Worth breaking the bank?

[Xeon]

Hi all,

I am currently in contact with a few small-sized SEO (Search Engine Optimization) companies and the average cost they quote for my small site is around US$300.
Gosh, one large SEO corporation even quoted US$600 per page (+US$300 setup fees and US$1200 monthly maintenance fees).

Anyway, has anyone tried paying for SEO before?
Due to the niche and nature of my start-up business, I cannot seem to identify exactly my audience and what keywords to use.
I'm not looking for #1 rankings on popular keywords across Google, Yahoo, MSN etc..., but at least get some reasonable exposure.

I'll be spending the bulk of my funds on press releases and the rest on SEO.
Anyone got any experience to share regarding paying for SEO?

Thanks!
Xeon. :)

[Saga Shirts]

Hi all,
Anyway, has anyone tried paying for SEO before?
Due to the niche and nature of my start-up business, I cannot seem to identify exactly my audience and what keywords to use.
I'm not looking for #1 rankings on popular keywords across Google, Yahoo, MSN etc..., but at least get some reasonable exposure.

First things first: if you're not sure who your audience is or what your keywords should be, it seems like a waste of money to pay someone to "optimize" your pages for you. Optimize for... what?

I've never paid for SEO. I was developing sites for others before I had commercial sites of my own. So that was part of the skill set I already had.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who offer SEO who are not reputable. If they talk vaguely about things they'll do to gain you a large number of inbound links, you would do better to avoid them. Remember that if Google catches them at black hat tactics it is your site that can be penalized - they won't be hurt one bit.

Again, the main thing is that you have to decide who you're trying to reach - nobody can optimize your pages if there's no understanding of who and what they're being optimized for.

If you just can't decide that yet then you could concentrate for now on getting good inbound links from sites that have content that matches the content of your shop. That can be free, but time consuming - because the best way to do it is to find those sites, contact their owners and ask them for a link, for a mention in their blog, whatever. You should always personalize those emails so that they can't be mistaken for form letters.

It's tedious and time consuming, but, like I said, free - and what Google likes, in inbound links, is to see them build up gradually over time. And whatever your market, a gradual buildup of high quality inbound links is going to help you a lot.

By the time you've done all of that maybe you'll see more clearly who you're trying to reach, and can think again about optimizing your pages. Once you know what you're optimizing them for.

[Xeon]

From Saga:
First things first: if you're not sure who your audience is or what your keywords should be, it seems like a waste of money to pay someone to "optimize" your pages for you. Optimize for... what?
LOL, I dunno who my audience is (since my designs are offensive, it's the same folks who buy offensive shirts), and that's why I dunno which keywords to target, and that's why I'm hiring SEO folks. :)

Good day!
Xeon.

[Cartesian Bear]

LOL, I dunno who my audience is (since my designs are offensive, it's the same folks who buy offensive shirts), and that's why I dunno which keywords to target, and that's why I'm hiring SEO folks.

Sounds like you've got a start on identifying your customers: people who would wear offensive shirts.

Now, imagine one of your shirts on someone, and keep asking questions:

- is this person young or old? What age range are they?
- male or female?
- are they well-educated?
- what type of job do they have?
- what do they do for entertainment?

Yes, you are making this up — give it your best guesses. Easiest is if you would wear your product: focus on people like you.

Now, think of what web locations would your imaginary shirt-wearer visit? What type of blogs do they read? What forums? You mentioned anime in another thread — does your shirt-wearer visit anime web sites? Continue, and you'll know where to start looking for link sites.


Another way to start this is to think of what keywords someone would put in Google to find your shirts. In my case, I want people to find my Heinlein shirts by searching "Heinlein t-shirt" of course, but also "science fiction t-shirt". For SEO, I make sure my section and product descriptions use the words "science fiction t-shirt" a lot. I also look for science fiction forums and groups where I can post a link.

Xeon, this should get you started. If not, how about letting us see your stuff and help directly?

--Liz

[gp1628]

From Saga:

LOL, I dunno who my audience is (since my designs are offensive, it's the same folks who buy offensive shirts), and that's why I dunno which keywords to target, and that's why I'm hiring SEO folks.
If you show me your stuff I might be able to point you to some forums. Forums are a good place to get in touch with your market. Find out what they like, what the want, and what words might work for keywords.

You might consider only paying to have something like section header pages be optimized. Or maybe your best selling shirt. Or the shirt you feel best gives the impression of what your shop is about. Then count on people shopping abit in order to get some fallout benefits.

[Xeon]

From Cuddly Bear and GP:
Xeon, this should get you started. If not, how about letting us see your stuff and help directly?
If you show me your stuff I might be able to point you to some forums. Forums are a good place to get in touch with your market. Find out what they like, what the want, and what words might work for keywords.
LOL, thank you so much, C-Bear and GP! Sigh, if only people in real life(at least around where I work) are so warm and helpful, how great that would be! Sigh, I'm really touched. Say, C-Bear and GP, if you need any help in future in anything, tell me and I'll try my best. ;)

However, nah....I prefer to keep my site nameless here for now due to privacy reasons and lurkers.
If you wish to know, drop me a PM. In the meantime, I'll go rack my brains and try to find out where to go.

By the way, this service from Majon International (http://www.majon.com/safeannounce) seems pretty cool. It's US$60++ to send an e-mail about your shop to 150, 000++ willing readers. I'm gonna try that, and I think you guys gotta see it to. These guys seem to know what they're doing, because their own site (Majon.com) ranks among the top few search results on Google / Yahoo if you search for highly competitive keywords like "internet marketing" etc. :D

Good day!
Xeon.

[Xeon]

Ok! I sent my website for free SEO analysis and below is a reply from the company:

Hi Xeon,

I've looked through your website trying to understand what keywords are necessary to use for it. It's a hard thing as it seems you created a personage for clothing and different things like mouse pads and probably caps, calendars, … and so on.
Web site optimization is good when an Internet market already exists, there are keywords which are searchable among public on Google, Yahoo and Live (former MSN) and the search volume is valid so you can have some traffic.

Your situation is different. In addition, your Shop is under another separate domain name ad it’s not helpful for optimization purposes.
But what I can suggest for you is a mass media distribution. You should write a press release and distribute through XXX company; it seems a reputable one.
So, my strategy now is to spend a bit of $ on SEO and stake everything else I have(my life, my bank, my manhood, my career, my life-savings, my body, everything) on 100% press releases. :D

Good day!
Xeon.

[fiannasidhe]

IMO - if you are willing and have the time to do the work yourself - there isn't a reason to spend a single penny on SEO - there are literally thousands of free resources and tools online to help you accomplish it - trust me, its not brain surgery.

[Cartesian Bear]

Oh ... another idea for Xeon. I hope this doesn't violate por posting policy.

If you have access to the Cafe Press forums, there is a lot of good info there for the reading. Some of it is closed unless you have a CP shop; but other topics are open to the public. [I'm not sure which. One of the reasons I keep a free CP shop is for forum access.]

With many more shopkeepers, there is a lot more info there, some of it riht on target for SEO and marketing in general. As long as we don't post anything nasty there (they police heavily), I see nothing wrong with getting info from them.

--Liz

[Xeon]

From fiannasidhe:
IMO - if you are willing and have the time to do the work yourself - there isn't a reason to spend a single penny on SEO - there are literally thousands of free resources and tools online to help you accomplish it - trust me, its not brain surgery.
Yeah, but if you do it yourself, most likely you're gonna find yourself on page no. 450 on Yahoo! when people search for your keywords. :D

From C-Bear:
Oh ... another idea for Xeon. I hope this doesn't violate por posting policy. If you have access to the Cafe Press forums, there is a lot of good info there for the reading. Some of it is closed unless you have a CP shop; but other topics are open to the public. [I'm not sure which. One of the reasons I keep a free CP shop is for forum access.
LOL, C-Bear....that's what I do every now and then! We can glean a lot of information from CP, I must admit. ;):D

Good day!
Xeon.

[fiannasidhe]

Yeah, but if you do it yourself, most likely you're gonna find yourself on page no. 450 on Yahoo! when people search for your keywords. :D


Oh yeah?

fairy t-shirts (*coughs* #1)
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=fairy+t-shirts&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&vc=&fp_ip=CA (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=fairy+t-shirts&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&vc=&fp_ip=CA)


alice in wonderland t-shirts (*coughs* #1)
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu6as35RGb.8AQERXNyoA?p=alice+in+wonderland+t-shirts&fr=yfp-t-501&fp_ip=CA&rd=r1&meta=vc%3Dca (http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu6as35RGb.8AQERXNyoA?p=alice+in+wonderland+t-shirts&fr=yfp-t-501&fp_ip=CA&rd=r1&meta=vc%3Dca)
cough #1

gnome t-shirts (*coughs* #4)
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu.DB35RGSDYAw4hXNyoA?p=gnome+t-shirts&fr=yfp-t-501&fp_ip=CA&rd=r1&meta=vc%3Dca

etc.. etc...

Completely self taught - no magic tricks. $0 spent.

[Xeon]

OK, darn! That's f***ing crazy, Ryann. It's vulgar.
Such things shouldn't be happening!

To be honest, I'm totally impressed. OK, but you're kind of an SEO girl yourself, so to you, it's easy. For guys like me, I probably need another 4 years to learn what SEO really is and I rather spend the $ on it.
I mean, after all, I've a day job which is enough to fund my marketing investments. Besides, I don't drink, smoke or pay for prostitutes. :cool::D

To each their own, I guess. ;)

Good day!
Xeon.

[Saga Shirts]

Oh yeah?...

Completely self taught - no magic tricks. $0 spent.

Hear, hear! :)

[Kayecee]

cool t-shirt 4835
offensive t-shirt 3273
offensive 3029
funny offensive t-shirt 661
rude offensive t-shirt 489
offensive shirt 591
rude t-shirt 1009
rude boy 3599
rude girl 789
too rude 472

Overture is your friend.... I searched t-shirt and offensive, which lead me to rude... the numbers above are the search counts.... to SEO a design I take 5 minutes to search overture for good keywords that people are looking for.... then I start to write a blurb and try to stuff as many of those keywords as possible without sounding totally stupid..... I don't know any of your tees, so I'll pretend you have a shirt that says 'eff off.... (ya said offensive)

F off shirt 31
F off t-shirt 31

So this is probably something like I'd write:

Looking for a funny, cool t-shirt? How about a rude offensive t-shirt? This design is for you! Whether you're a rude girl or a rude boy you can't be too rude with this F off shirt! Get yours today!

Keyword combos from above: funny, cool, t-shirt, rude, offensive, design, rude girl, rude boy, too rude, F off, F off shirt, cool t-shirt, rude offensive t-shirt, offensive t-shirt, and so on and so forth.....

Then it ends with a call to action.

Of course, I'd spell the 'eff in your descriptions.... I was being polite for the forums.... :D

[Xeon]

Gosh, thanks a lot, Kaycee! Will go to Overture now to try that out! Many thanks and happy returns of the day! ;)

EDIT: Wait a min.......Kaycee........where did you get those search data from Overture? I visited Overture but found nothing on their site.

Thanks and good day,
Xeon.

[Kayecee]

http://www.inventory.overture.com

:) Sorry..... I was ticked at all of the "issues" elsewhere lately and logged off right after I wrote that last message so I could rein in muh temper..... I never go to overture.com directly and didn't know there wasn't a clear link on their page.... sorry... hope it helps....

[Xeon]

Gotcha! Thanks a lot, Kaycee!
Another better one is WordTracker.com; it offers free trial but is ****ing expensive if you want the paid version.

Good day!
Xeon.

[Kayecee]

Gotcha! Thanks a lot, Kaycee!
Another better one is WordTracker.com; it offers free trial but is ****ing expensive if you want the paid version.

Good day!
Xeon.

I actually use wordtracker a lot..... it can be a PITA to do the e-mail thing every time you just need a few quick keywords..... I usually use WT to see whether or not a niche is worth exploring...... I get a ton of great leads, design/section ideas, and keywords from it...... my favorite thing for quick keywords to just write a description with is to access overture through a handy dandy desktop tool from goodkeywords.com (the free version)

[Xeon]

Hi Kaycee!

LOL, found another good tool here: http://www.nichebot.com/v2/o
This seems to be better than WT and OT, though. And it's free. ;)

Good day!
Xeon.

[Pussycat]

That´s cool Xeon and Kayecee - just the thing I needed, I was running out of ideas for keywords fast :D

[Cartesian Bear]

I've tried Overture a few times, and it always says there are no suggestions.

Even for "science fiction" and "t-shirt". In my usual browser (Omniweb) and Firefox. Cookies on or off. Java & Javascript on. With my fingers crossed, and muttering incantations.

What am I doing wrong?

--Liz the perplexed

[Xeon]

From C-Bear:
I've tried Overture a few times, and it always says there are no suggestions.
Even for "science fiction" and "t-shirt". In my usual browser (Omniweb) and Firefox. Cookies on or off. Java & Javascript on. With my fingers crossed, and muttering incantations.
What am I doing wrong?
Err....have you tried using it in IE 6 / 7?

[Kayecee]

Pussycat.... YW :)


Liz... that is one of the reasons that I use the free tool from Good Keywords...... some days inventory at overture would work perfectly.... other days I couldn't get it to pull up a thing....

I don't think any tool is perfect.... they can give you some cool ideas for keywords though... even the NicheBot tool was telling me that I had found a goldmine with every keyword I searched.... uhm.... I think there's a teensy bit of competition for the word t-shirt.... ;) That's why I take some of the statistics on all of them with a grain of salt.... A LOT of tools seemed to be flawed in one way or another..... Just find one that you like and works for you but keep in mind that the statistics are probably a little "off" in some way.....

All right.... so far, we have:

http://www.nichebot.com/v2/o (http://www.nichebot.com/v2/o)

http://www.wordtracker.com (http://www.wordtracker.com/)

http://www.goodkeywords.com (http://www.goodkeywords.com/)

http://inventory.overture.com/d/searchinventory/suggestion

http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/suggestion (this one uses Overture and Wordtracker)

http://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordToolExternal


Anyone else have any favorites?

[Cartesian Bear]

Err....have you tried using it in IE 6 / 7?

I don't do Misro$oft.

--Liz

[Kayecee]

Liz.... I modified the Overture link.... SOMETIMES that one is a tad more friendly....... I also added two more tools..... the Digital Point one gets its info from Overture and Wordtracker...... the other is from Google adwords.... I haven't used either yet, but will give them a test run... members of one of the t-shirt groups I belong to were just talking about them and use those, so I thought I'd throw them up there too.....

All in all, there's a nice set of tools that should get y'all goin' on finding keywords quickly and easily..... if anyone has any questions, just holla.... :D

[webmaniac]

XEON,

Check this out, you get both wordtracker and overture keywords here. http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/suggestion/

Hope this helps ^^